The Bill Laswell topic

IDK if it makes sense to compare artists of such a stature, and George certainly was much more influential (though Bill’s impact on the early developments of hip-hop and world music can’t be denied), but Bill Laswell is a true giant.

His discography is vertiginous both in quantity (he’s among the most prolific artists of all time) and diversity (there’s hardly a genre he didn’t touch): http://www.silent-watcher.net/billlaswell/discography/alphabeticalindex.html

Most funk fans are probably mostly familiar with his 90s collaborations with P-Funk alumnis, but there’s really a whole continent to discover if one is inclined to delve into other genres :heart_eyes:

So, to me, as someone who’s heard nearly everything those artists released, he’s up there with George and Prince: a true visionary, someone who developed a whole musical universe that’s purely his own, leaving us with a remarkable legacy.

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He’s done so much stuff. Besides the pfunk related stuff from the 90s, I also like the later dub/ambient stuff.

I really hope Laswell gets well soon!
billlaswell.bandcamp.com

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Here we go…misunderstanding time…

I probably own almost 100 albums he (Laswell) either produced, co produced or played bass on.
Love his work.

there is however, not an equal level of comparison to the Clinton discography. I’m sorry that offends people on the
“PFUNK FORUM.”

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Bill’s output is insane. I was listening to Praxis a few weeks ago, and decided to dig into his discography. It stretches across so many genres.

Axiom Funk is still a favorite of mine. I remember picking it up from Columbia House, and was on of my first introductions into the world of P-Funk. It blew my mind.

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@silentboatman Thanks for creating a thread dedicated to Bill Laswell.

I’m not sure if it’s clear to people that my OP was actually a reply in another thread, so that’s the context if it seems a little confusing ^^

@DannyBedrosian I don’t know that anyone was offended, I certainly wasn’t, I was just making conversation (I’m not a native English speaker so IDK, maybe my phrasing sounds more dramatic than intended, in which case I apologize if it gives the wrong impression).

I suspect that, growing-up, P-Funk was for you what Prince was for me, so maybe you’re a little partial to George Clinton, IDK. For decades, I would have defended the thesis that Prince’s body of work surpasses any other. Now, at 49, it just seems to make little sense to me to try and hierarchize artists like that, because I don’t really know what objective criterias could possibly be used.

I mean, yeah, if someone comes and tells me “Chromeo’s body of work is equal to George Clinton’s”, I’d be like “nope”, because no matter how much I love Chromeo, their work is quite derivative, they didn’t release that much music and they didn’t inflence generations of subsequent artists. But how does one compare and hierarchize people such as Prince, George Clinton, Bill Laswell or, for that matter, Ryuichi Sakamoto or Haruomi Hosono or Frank Zappa or James Brown and so on?

I can’t really find any objective criterias to hierarchize those bodies of work and I don’t even know that it makes sense to try. I have my preferences (I don’t really care for Zappa’s music, for example), but beyond that, I just know that they’re all giants, they all had a major impact on the history and evolution of modern music, they all left a vertiginous amount of recordings… It’s like discussing “is Miles Davis better than John Coltrane or the other way around”? Man, I don’t know… Who does know?

Mostly, I just wanted to express my love and admiration for Bill Laswell’s work, because I have a very intimate history with it, it’s important to me, and I think Bill Laswell is really underrated simply because so few people know about his work (most people I know know who Prince is, many know who George Clinton is, hardly any of them has even heard the name Bill Laswell—it’s sad, really). And, on a side note, I originally discovered Laswell thanks to his collabs with the P-Funk people, so one passion led me to another (same way Prince led me to George in the first place).

Now if you wish to offer a rationale and explain why Bill Laswell’s work can’t be compared to George Clinton’s, it’s cool, I’ll hear the arguments, maybe I’ll even be like “oh, OK, Danny really has a point there”. It’s just a friendly, respectful discussion among geeks, I’m cool, we’re just nerdin’ here :slight_smile:

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Again, I’m surprised I have to say this here on the P-Funk Forum of all places. But the cultural comparison between George Clinton and Bill Laswell is so disparate that it hardly needs explanation. It’s hard to know where to even start, but I notice as the historiography of musical culture goes on in western civilization, the generations become less and less acknowledging and knowledgeable about the, as you guys said “hierarchy” so to speak, of artists.

The work speaks for itself, so it’s hard for me to go any further than the three books that I’ve already written on the subject. I’d say probably the best idea is to buy those books, LOL, and that will give you a better idea of why Clinton’s contribution could easily be argued as culturally and musicologically more important at least in terms of impact and worldwide recognition.

Yes Bill Laswell has played music from all over the world. Yes Bill Laswell is known internationally, I’m not denying that… But if you take 100 random people from almost anywhere, and ask them all who George Clinton is and who Bill Laswell is, well the results would speak for themselves.

In fact I’m usually the one in the room who has to argue for Bill laswell’s cultural connectivity, so to speak because most people have no idea who he is nor even care. And others, you would be surprised, especially in music circles, have much more to say about the actual contribution and how much or little weight it actually carries.
I’ve never worked in that camp and have no idea the inner workings beyond what I know from people who have.

I guess finally and most importantly, the longevity and impact once again of Clinton is far surpassing that of Laswell. I know this is just my opinion so to speak, but let’s look at the 71 year history and discography of the P. Laswell’s musical contribution, while great, of course and while discographically large, still only makes about half of that in terms of time.

Secondly let’s look at the impact in terms of charting and hits. How many hits came out of the Bill Laswell camp? And how many of those “hits” were actually contributed most notably by Laswell personally and specifically? Now let’s compare that to P-Funk and more specifically George Clinton’s production output which is the majority therein. There are many hits that can be mentioned, most of which are still played on the radio today; others have been sampled so much that they have expanded beyond the musicological output originally intended and have grown into something greater than their original selves. None of this can be mentioned with the Laswell discography.
And lastly, the live output and contribution of Clinton and camp Far supersedes That of any group that came out of the lazwell camp. The volume and international spread of P funk’s live work more than speaks for itself and is very hard to compare to almost any other band especially in terms of sheer volume and cultural importance.

I almost feel insane for having to describe this and give my opinion on this. It seems so obvious. If one was comparing George Clinton, and maybe James Brown or Sly Stone or the Beatles or Motown, some other great act like that that has had a similar type of cultural impact or perhaps a greater cultural impact,then I would understand how this conversation would be worth having. But Bill Laswell is such a niche name in the music business; you have to be extremely Underground to even know who he is, and considered avant garde to own any of his work, which by the way, I love.

I am perhaps the only person my age in my fairly large worldwide social circle who even knows who he is let alone enjoys the great discography that he has given us over the years. Perhaps it is the age or generational naivete for lack of a better word that is causing this misunderstanding to even occur.

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I have Funkcronomicon - Axiom Funk on cassette. I played the Sacred To The Pain track to death.

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I’m not sure those results would speak for themselves. Maybe you run in cooler circles than I do (I am sure you do, actually, being as connected to the P as you are…) but I think in my neck of the woods, if you were to take 100 random people, you might find that zero of them know George, or Bill.

But that said, your point is well-made that if you were to expand this polled sample to a statistically significant number, eventually you would find that GC is much more well-known than Bill Laswell. That is obvious.

I know that I would not know a single thing about Bill Laswell if not for his frequent collaborations with P-funk, most often Bernie and Bootsy.

(I realize that this conversation is ongoing because @lotusflow3r began comparing the relative “value” provided to subscribers by each artist, and to be honest, that’s a conversation worth having, but for the time being I’m just going to watch and occasionally ask questions to better understand).

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Thank you for taking the time to reply, and I’m sorry if I spoke out of turn. You make some good points here, and while there’s a few others I’d be inclined to elaborate on, I think @silentboatman wanted this thread to be about Bill Laswell, so I won’t derail it any further.

I’ll just say that reading your reply made me realize that the fact that I’m from Europe probably plays a rather important part in our differences of perceptions (or my own biases, if you will).

I also didn’t know there was a second book. I looked it up and I just pre-orderd the paperback version, so let’s see what I think about all this after I get it (which won’t be before next May).

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Like I said, I don’t want to derail the thread any further and my intent on the other thread wasn’t to start a heated debate, but since you brought that up, and as I mentioned above, I’m from Europe (France, specifically), and, yes, I said above most of my friends know about P-Funk, but that’s because they’re music buffs and because there was this huge P-Funk revival (in great part thanks to hip-hop and samples) among French hipsters in the 90s, so P-Funk became “cool” in some circles in my youth (and so did Bill in others because of his electronic, dub and world music output, but that indeed remained more niche because, obviously, you just can’t play too much Bill Laswell at a party, but it’s true for a lot of music in those genres).

But (sadly), none of the P-Funk acts ever had a hit in France. Most “ordinary” people here (of the X/Y generations, at least, I can’t speak for Gen Zs and Alphas, but I suspect it’s worse with them—I’m 5 years older than Danny, BTW, so it was a little uncalled for to be accused of being “less and less acknowledging and knowledgeable” because of “generational naivete”, but whatever…), most “ordinary” people here, I was saying, haven’t heard the names George Clinton, Bootsy Collins, Parliament, Funkadelic, Maceo Parker, etc. I know, because I don’t just hang out with hipsters, and clearly there’s a line between what “laymen” know and what music buffs know. Those same ordinary French people that you’d randomly stop in the street, if you asked them, would most likely know of James Brown, Jimi Hendrix, Prince, Stevie Wonder, Janet Jackson, Santana, Barry White, Lionel Ritchie, Marvin Gaye, Curtis Mayfield, Isaac Hayes, Kool & The Gang or Earth, Wind & Fire (and even bloody Shalamar!), but they wouldn’t know George and Bootsy from Bill (and, believe it or not, they wouldn’t know of Sly Stone either!). Now they’d all know Snoop’s What’s My Name? and other rap songs sampling/interpolating P-Funk, but they’d have no idea where that came from. P-Funk and Sly Stone never charted, thus never had any open cultural impact here. It’s a niche thing for “cool” people (and that’s also why I was privileged enough to attend 3 nights in a row of George Clinton at a small Paris venue, with an audience of only a few hundreds, in 1995).

The Western world isn’t as unified as it seems. No one in France has the slightest idea who Garth Brooks, Roberto Carlos, George Strait or Journey are, yet they’re listed on Wikipedia as some of the best-selling artists of all time. Barely anyone here knows of, say, Fleetwood Mac or Steely Dan either. Yet, I believe most people in the US knows those acts (save, maybe, Carlos, who’s Brazilian).

And it gets worse when you get out of the West. I was living and working in India when David Bowie and Prince died, and all my colleagues, when I mentioned it, were like: “Who?” (one even asked me, about Bowie, "Do you mean David Guetta?—Lawd, was that embarrassing!!). This would have been unthinkable in the US or Europe. Then I was l living and working in China the next school year, when Leonard Cohen and George Michael died, and the same thing happened: none of my Chinese students or colleagues knew who those people were.

So, yeah, despite my—I hope, I’m trying to learn—reasonably good understanding of African-American music History, my perceptions are very much biased by me being French. Which doesn’t undermine Danny’s argument: yes, the P-Funk collective’s impact on American music certainly was much more significant than Bill Laswell’s, and yes, if you surveyed every person on Earth, George’s name would be more known. Now is that all that matters? That’s another discussion to be had in another thread, so I’ll leave it at that :slight_smile:

I’ll reply to the other posts about Bill Laswell later, and I’ll try to keep the conversation (in this thread) about him from this point on :slight_smile:

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The comment about generational naivete wasn’t about you specifically, it was more about the new generation’s social media based reframing of commonly known tropes about famous artists musicians Etc.

I would also argue that George is at least as well known, if not more well known in France than, say, Shalamar. For one, I have to say that I’ve even been stopped in the street multiple times (and I’m not even famous) in Paris and in Marseille by strangers who knew me specifically as the P-Funk keyboardist, and even knew my name. I think you may be more surprised about how well known George is in France, generally speaking. I can say that in my 23-year career with P-Funk touring, I’ve played a dozen or more cities and towns all over France, and have been to the country with George probably almost 20 times; maybe more. Some shows we have done have had tens of thousands of people, some even more. We have headlined massive festivals in the North, South, Wine country, Normandy, near the Swiss border, the Atlantic Coast, the Mediterranean; all over really.

I think you may be surprised at how many people in your great country actually do know George and P-Funk, bc it certainly impressed me during my first trips to France. Not as much as America (and perhaps Canada, UK, Japan & possibly The Netherlands) probably, but more than many other places.

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If so, I couldn’t be happier. I was abroad for years and I don’t necessarily know what younger people listen to, so it’s very possible that decade after decade, the Internet, word of mouth, music festivals, the French media, etc. finally gave P-Funk the exposure it deserves or, at least, much more exposure than it did have in my youth, and this is great news :slight_smile:

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I perked up when that mug produced Time Was off of Blacktronic Science. That was when Laswell really got my attention. I like alot of the ambient dubs he’s done like Psychonavigation and what not.

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Bill Laswell (or rather, his music?) seems to polarize listeners. He has music out that I enjoy jamming to.

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Fascinating debate. :sign_of_the_horns:

From my own experiences in England…

Big funk revival in the uk late 80s early 90s. But a lot of that there funk, James Brown aside, who was still massively popular, was jazz funk.

What became known as Acid Jazz - a record label but also an in joke rather than the usual crappy journalist tagging of a scene - because acid house and house music in general was so big at the time…

Anyway, jokes and digressions aside, the icons that were having an impact and a renaissance late 80s early nineties, were people like Stevie Wonder, Roy Ayers, Gil Scott Heron and Average White Band - and of course all that 90s hip hop that was jazz flavoured from the likes of Tribe or Guru.

What was conspicuously absent from this clash of new and old funk in 90s uk was the P.

Until I got to Canada in my mid twenties and the mid 90s and had friends who were massive pfunk fans, George was the guy who had produced my favourite Chili Peppers album.*

What I’m saying is, we managed to have a fairly important funk revival in the 90s and you’d think George and Co would be front and centre but they weren’t.

I’ve listened to quite a lot of Laswell projects recently, mostly due to Mr B’s exceptional book.Funkcronomicon is one of my faves too. Sacred to the pain gets me EVERYTIME.

*oh yeah forgot, first time I heard George’s voice would have been Prince’s We Can Funk. Who the funk is that oul fella, I thought at the time. Is that the fella from Freaky Styley? :smirking_face:

Very interesting take for the UK. I can certainly say GC and Pfunk were front and center of the funk revival on the U.S. thats for sure.

And maybe I’m missing something, but
P-Funk has been big on the UK all the years that I toured there, for certain… We headlined Glastonbury more than once (250,000+ people; more than ANY show we have done in America) and had a bigger crowd than KANYE did across the field.

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And it was absolutely rammed when I saw you guys in London not too far back. :wink:

And of course today is a very different landscape - everyone knows George nowadays - and I’d be wary of my personal experiences being held up as any kind of mirror for other people in the UK.

And and and :slight_smile:

Nevertheless, I was a nut for the funk in the early nineties, particularly 70s funk. it’s a curious thing, A George-shaped blackhole in the funk fabric.

George’s music was all around me in sample form, of course, I just didn’t know.

In a way it’s kind of apposite. P is the F.u.n.k…but it’s also just a wee bit separate and to the side. The really good stuff you only get out for special guests.

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Those Glastonbury gigs y’all did got good press. No small feat considering how snobbish the press over there can get at times. They loved him. The PF can be inaccessible to some. They want something more simple. Just some good grooves sans all the conceptual stuff. To me that is what makes them special.
The great Greg Tate put it best when he said one time ‘ehhh maybe Funkadelic is just too weird for you’.

I’d be interested in hearing your musing regarding a GC/Zappa conversation of similar tone?